[Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

Thu Nov 3 14:01:41 MST 2005

Well, my point was not at all "this is a burden to motorists" but "this is 
a crash waiting to happen."  Multiple crashes actually, since at least one 
has happened.  Sorry I didn't make that more clear.  My concern is safety, 
perceived vs actual, for cyclists here, and the concern that the crashes 
will be bad given cyclists' speeds with the downhill and prevailing 
tailwind, and the general sudden-ness of motorists' movements which are 
illegal.

The street could be designed to position the likely manageable number of 
right turning motorists per signal cycle out of cyclists' ways if we were 
allowed to do so.  Movements from a right turn lane right against the curb 
would be just as slow, and more predictable.

And breaking the law, traffic or otherwise, especially if the law seems 
silly or unnecessary, is certainly human nature.  I'm sure nearly every 
person on this list does it on a regular basis.

Mike

"Brinkman, Cheryl" <Cheryl.Brinkman at McKesson.com> 
Sent by: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org
11/03/2005 12:39 PM

To
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
cc

Subject
Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

Oh poor drivers!  Having to push their widdle foots on the gas pedal for a 
few more seconds to get to the other legal freeway on-ramps. Let's charge 
them ten bucks to get on and off and see how they like that.  They'll be 
wishing for the days of a few extra blocks to drive.

Sorry,  I know I know: Sarcasm helps no one.

As I mentioned at the BOS Land Use yesterday, there are some cars making 
illegal right turns onto the freeway - but they have to do it pretty darn 
slowly because the turn is greater then 90 degrees, and they end up in the 
left lane of the freeway.  It's not a fast turn, and so is less dangerous. 
 Those law breakers are less likely to hit someone going slowly. 

The no right turn onto the freeway is a burden only for drivers who start 
their trips in the 3 blocks of Market street between Duboce and the 
freeway.  Everyone else can turn on Duboce, improving the flow on Duboce 
probably would help, it's not a transit or bike route as was pointed out 
yesterday.

Why is still considered acceptable for cyclists to have go to the bike 
route street (sometimes many blocks away)  to feel somewhat safe, and peds 
to have cross three times to get across "no ped Crossing" intersections to 
make things faster for cars - and  facilitate "traffic flow", but making 
cars drive a few blocks further to facilitate ped and bike safety is some 
odd hardship?

Breaking traffic laws is not human nature, it's learned behavior due to a 
lack of enforcement and a sense of entitlement, and the fact that many 
drivers are single moders.  They ONLY drive.  I don't think it's pointless 
to try and make conditions better through design.  It may be an uphill 
battle, but what isn't?

So, what was the upshot of yesterday's agenda item?  I had to leave before 
the end.

Cheryl

From: Mike Sallaberry [mailto:Mike.Sallaberry at sfgov.org] 
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:59 AM
To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

Josh, I don't think you are accurately conveying what may happen if the 
turn is allowed by saying that there will be "hundreds of cars queuing." 
That won't be the case, especially if there can be improvements made to 
Duboce to make that a better route for freeway-bound motorists. 

Unfortunately, it looks like the decisions which lead to the current No 
Right Turn at the intersection fail to acknowledge human nature and the 
limitations of what facilities and enforcement can accomplish.  Designing 
in a way counter to these realities is pointless.  It would be like 
installing a "Bikes walk bikes across crosswalk" sign at the Fell-Masonic 
path crossing. 

Mike

Joshua Switzky <Joshua.Switzky at sfgov.org> 
Sent by: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org 
11/02/2005 09:21 AM 

To
A P Thornley <apt at thornley.com> 
cc
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org 
Subject
Re: [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- Market/Octavia freeway ramp

the right turn is even greater than a bike or ped issue -- it's about
encouraging and facilitating the use of Market as a freeway on-ramp. If 
the
right-turn movement is allowed, this won't be one or two incidental cars
and hour, this will be hundreds of cars queuing on market street that
aren't there now, that will not just back up across the bike lane, but 
into
the travel lane, and onto the F-line tracks. All these cars now use Duboce
(not a transit route, not a bike route), and have been doing so for 50
years. Why invite all these cars to stay on Market for two or three more
blocks and queue on Market Street, where the impacts are 100 times 
greater?
-j

            A P Thornley 
            <apt at thornley.com 
            >                                                          To 
            Sent by:                  Carfreeliving at livablecity.org 
            Carfreeliving-bou                                          cc 
            nces at livablecity. 
            org                                                   Subject 
                                      [Carfreeliving] BoS Land Use -- 
                                      Market/Octavia freeway ramp 
            11/01/2005 11:01 
            PM 

Good people of all modes, but especially you Pedestrian Advocates --

Tomorrow (Weds 11/2) the BoS Land Use Committee will be hearing from
DPT and others on the Market/Octavia freeway ramp, a status report,
what's dangerous, what needs fixing. The banned right turn off EB
Market onto the freeway has been made by some into a bike lane issue,
but much more than that it's a pedestrian issue -- no matter where
the bike lane is positioned (against the curb, to the left of a turn
pocket), pedestrians are imperiled by the fast downhill careless turn
onto the freeway (the most common pedestrian injury/fatality? seems
like there's a superlative statistic I've heard about fast turns and
injuries) . . .

So it'd be great to get a few eloquent pedestrians up for comment at
tomorrow's meeting. It starts at 1:00 pm (City Hall, Room 263) but
the Octavia Market Freeway item probably won't come up till an hour
or two into the meeting (it's #5, the last item):

    http://sfgov.org/site/bdsupvrs_page.asp?id=13956

And if you can't come, please send Sup. Dufty a note
(Bevan.Dufty at sfgov.org) . . .

Use your bell,

            --Andy--

==== from the SFBC Bike Bulletin, pardon any repetition =====

LAND USE COMMITTEE HEARS MARKET/OCTAVIA/FREEWAY CONCERNS WEDS 11/2

The new central freeway ramp at Market and Octavia has been open for
almost two months, but that gnarly intersection is still missing some
key safety features to help assure pedestrians and cyclists of safe
passage along the street. This Wednesday (11/2) the Board of
Supervisors' Land Use Committee (1:00 pm, City Hall, Room 263) will
conduct a hearing on the Market/Octavia freeway ramp, what's been
done so far and what's left to do. We'll be there to emphasize the
city's commitment to keeping Market Street a transit/ped/bike space
and not a freeway feeder route, and ask that colored bike lane
pavement be installed across mouth of the freeway, as recommended in
the Board's August 2004 resolution banning the eastbound right turn
onto the freeway. (You may notice that a new bike lane has been
striped along a key block on eastbound Market St. near the new
freeway ramp, but it's not a colored bike lane as it should be to
draw more attention to this tricky area.)

Please come to this hearing if you can, and contact Supervisor Dufty
(Bevan.Dufty at sfgov.org) and let him know that you want colored bike
pavement ~now~ as part of the safety treatments for this intersection.

_______________________________________________
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org mailing list
to facilitate and promote car-free living in SF
To unsubscribe:
mailto:Carfreeliving-request at livablecity.org?subject=unsubscribe
or, for all options, go to:
http://livablecity.org/mailman/listinfo/carfreeliving_livablecity.org

_______________________________________________
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org mailing list 
to facilitate and promote car-free living in SF
To unsubscribe: 
mailto:Carfreeliving-request at livablecity.org?subject=unsubscribe
or, for all options, go to:
http://livablecity.org/mailman/listinfo/carfreeliving_livablecity.org
_______________________________________________
Carfreeliving at livablecity.org mailing list 
to facilitate and promote car-free living in SF
To unsubscribe: 
mailto:Carfreeliving-request at livablecity.org?subject=unsubscribe
or, for all options, go to:
http://livablecity.org/mailman/listinfo/carfreeliving_livablecity.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://livablecity.org/pipermail/carfreeliving_livablecity.org/attachments/20051103/a7d02a4e/attachment-0001.htm