[Carfreeliving] scooters - fun to ride but...

Mon Oct 24 13:26:24 MDT 2005

 Thanks Hitesh, Not too much info at all, that's fascinating.  Never an easy
answer, that's why I stick to my bike and my feet as much as possible.

...and Muni less and less due to the service cuts making the lines I use
close to worthless.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hitesh Soneji [mailto:koolkwote at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:13 AM
To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] scooters - fun to ride but...

I don't know if it is as straight forward as a wash.

Most modern cars have gotten emissions of smog particles
(SOx, NOx, C0, etc) way down. Smog particles tend to impact
more at the local and regional level, breathing issues,
asthma, soot, etc. They also partially contribute to global
warming efforts, but are not the main force. (There is much
work to be done here, but on the whole, the US has done a
better job on smog than most other countries... mostly
because we had the money, and some will.)

No matter what though, you get about the same amount of CO2
per gallon of fuel burned. Hence efficiency prevents addition
of CO2 - the primary global warming gas of concern.
Efficeiency can decrease the amount of released C02 / mile
driven.

As for scooters(and most motorcycles), they tend to emit far
greater amounts of smog particles/gallon burned... no
Catalytic Converter, No O2 sensor, carbuerators, less
computer control for perfect burn within the combustion
chamber, etc. The more incomplete the combustion in the
vehicle, the greater the release of smog particles. 

Now, since scooters use 1/3 to 1/2 the amount of fuel for the
same distance, the CO2 released per mile is significantly
less, but the smog output is still greater per mile. 

So... is your concern regional Smog? then the car is the
lesser evil. Or, is your concern global warming? then the
scooter is the lesser evil

I don't have solid data off the top of my head. But I can dig
it out if someone is interested.

The other point that I always like to make is this: 
Catalytic Converters are useless for about the first 10
minutes of a car warming up. So, any engine, even with
wonderful emissions controls, pollutes the most in it's first
10 minutes. (hybrids excluded) 

So all those short trips are actually the worst trips from an
emissions perspective. :(

hope that wasn't too much,
Hitesh

--- "Brinkman, Cheryl" <Cheryl.Brinkman at McKesson.com> wrote:

> so it's as wash? they burn less gasoline, but for each
> gallon burned
> they emit more pollutants.  Only benefit is the user saving
> money.
>  
> I wish the guy in Texas had gone with his first inclination
> and gotten a
> bicycle.  Now that would have made an interesting story.
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: Bert Hill [mailto:echill at sfhills.org] 
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:11 AM
> To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
> Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] scooters - fun to ride but...
> 
> 
> 
> Same thing.  I haven't read up lately, but I think
> converters and other
> equipment are not mandated on new motorcycles until 2007. 
> You can look
> it up on the California Air Resources Board website.
> 
> Bert
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> 
> From: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org
> [mailto:Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org] On Behalf Of
> David Baker
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:02 AM
> To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
> Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] scooters - fun to ride but...
> 
>  
> 
> what about motorcycles?
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> 
> From: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org
> [mailto:Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org] On Behalf Of
> Bert Hill
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 7:58 AM
> To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
> Subject: Re: [Carfreeliving] scooters - fun to ride but...
> 
> Nearly all scooters pollute at up to 15x the rate of
> automobiles.
> Unless they are fitted with catalytic converters and other
> emissions
> control equipment, they contribute heavily to negative
> health effects.
> Battery technology is improving, to the point that electric
> scooters can
> be used reliably for in-city commutes reliably.
> 
> Bert
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> 
> From: Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org
> [mailto:Carfreeliving-bounces at livablecity.org] On Behalf Of
> Mike
> Sallaberry
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 3:11 PM
> To: Carfreeliving at livablecity.org
> Subject: [Carfreeliving] scooters - fun to ride but...
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Kinda cute story about a Texas dude who trades in his
> pickup for a
> scooter.  We have a lot of scooters and motos here in SF
> relative to
> most US towns, but I often wonder why scooters are not more
> popular.
> Not that I necessarily want a lot of them near me as I'm
> cycling...at
> least cars are big plodding creatures that are slow to
> change direction
> and are pretty predictable.  Scooters are more of a hazard,
> in my book.
> Still, they make a lot of sense for people who don't want
> to give up
> motoring but deep down hate their cars, and could serve as
> a transition
> tool for folks who may eventually give up the scooter for a
> bicycle. 
> Mike 
> 
> Here's the article 
> -> "When gas got to $1.90, I started thinking about an
> alternative. 
> Half-jokingly and half-seriously, I told my wife (Beth),
> 'When the 
> price hits $2, I'm going to buy a bicycle.' Everything I do
> is within 
> three miles of the house. The last time I filled up the
> Ranger, it was 
> $50. I looked over at the guy next to me with an Escalade
> (SUV), and he 
> was over $100 and still going. I said, 'This is
> ridiculous.'..."
> -- Micky Shearon, Hood County, TX
>
http://www.hcnews.com/news/get-news.asp?id=11041&catid=1&cpg=get-news.as
> p
> 
> Michael Sallaberry, P.E.
> Associate Transportation Engineer
> San Francisco Department of Parking and Traffic
> 25 Van Ness Avenue, Suite 345
> San Francisco, CA 94102
> (415) 554 2351
> (415) 554 2352 (fax)
> Bicycle Hotline (415) 585-BIKE
> http://www.bicycle.sfgov.org
> 
> > _______________________________________________
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